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UD #19: The Indy Junkie vs. Bill Foley

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  • UD #19: The Indy Junkie vs. Bill Foley

    The Indy Junkie vs. Bill Foley

    Which is the best WrestleMania event ever? (open pick)
    Person who picks first will debate first

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    UNDISPUTED DEBATE LEAGUE #19 MATCHES
    Last edited by Shockage; 03-16-2012, 07:53 PM.

  • #2
    I see what you are doing here. I'm cool with it. I'll be the gentlemen here and go first. I'll take WM 22.
    "Turley OR NO ONE ELSE"

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bill Foley View Post
      I see what you are doing here. I'm cool with it. I'll be the gentlemen here and go first. I'll take WM 22.
      OK Foley set the premise of the whole show, He went Modern so I'll go Pre-Modern I'll go single Digit I'll go WWF I'll Take WRESTLEMANIA VII
      Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat.-Kahless

      Comment


      • #4
        Bill you have to Monday 26th to get your debate in. As it is 7 days since Indy posted his pick!!

        Comment


        • #5
          As long as the event has been around people have often asked, Which Mania was the greatest? With twenty seven to choose from, that's not an easy task. Because in the end it all comes down to preference. So with that in mind I Choose Wrestlemania 22. Not Wrestlemania XXII, because it was special enough to get an actual number. Wrestlemania 22 had it all, great matches, great spots, great feuds, and a great atmosphere. It would also be the first Wrestlemania after the Eddie Guerrero tragedy and would practically be dedicated to him. Simply put, Wrestlemania 22 made history. WrestleMania 22 hosted a complete card that got you started and kept on going.

          WrestleMania 22 was host to some of the greatest matches in Wrestlemania history. They may not all be top ten but most were special. Many were four star quality or better. Wrestlemania 22 hosted one of, if not the greatest women's match in history, Mickie James Vs Trish Stratus. It was the culmination of a very creative story line that completely delivered a high quality performance that even rivaled their male counterparts. It was a great display of what two women at the top of their game can do. Oh, and this was great women's wrestling way before the birth of the knockout's division. Those two showed that not only do Women belong on the card, they can headline it. Besides, in my opinion, it was the greatest finish in the history of wrestling even if that is coming from a guys point of view.

          Wrestlemania was also host to a pair of five star matches. Firstly, it was the stage for Mick Foley's long sought after wrestlemania moment which would come against the Rated R superstar Edge. It was an up and down roller coaster ride that left you speechless at the end. From the spear into the hidden barbed wire wrapped around Foley's waist, to the vicious onslaught of thumb tacks this match really gave you your money's worth all by itself. Who could ever forget the look on edge's face after he sat up with all that shiny silver sticking out of just about every part of his body. In another case of just how tough the women of that era were Lita took one hell of a beating in that match. One of the worst looking bumps had Lita on the back of Mick Foley who then decides to do his usual suicide clothesline over the top rope sending Lita shooting down on her face. It was also the first and only time Wrestlemania saw a flaming table. The carnage left behind from the two men's total hatred for one another was literally littered about the arena, as the match was one of the most violent in the history of the card. The image of a bloody and burnt Edge stumbling up the ramp shaking uncontrolably will be forever burnt into the memories of the fans who witnessed it.

          The second five star match came in the form of an old fashion destroy the boss fest, Shawn Michaels vs. Vince McMahon. An honor that had only been bestowed to Shane McMahon and Hulk Hogan in previous mania's. McMahon has always been a name that could deliver a big match one way or the other and Shawn Michaels is Mr Wrestlmania. Those two chemicals mixed for a potent confrontation. In one of the most physical matches Vince had ever been a part of, Shawn would lay waste to the owner of the company and receive redemption for all the wrong that had befallen him. The match even featured one of the riskiest spots in the industry, a blind elbow from the top of a ladder. Vince was covered with a trash can and thrown on a table, Michael would ascend to the heavens and come crashing down like an angel of vengeance. The one thing that Always set the McMahon matches apart was the degree of realism Vince's matches always had. There wasn't anything Vince wasn't willing to do to achieve the effect he needed.

          The second installment of money in the bank produced another display of great athleticism and many breath taking moments. Money in the bank is usually a spot junkies dream come true. One of the most memorable spots in the match was Ric Flair at the top of the Ladder being suplexed off of it by Matt Hardy. What made this even more amazing is that the man looked seriously hurt but he still managed to come back. He summoned up the will of a warrior and got back in there. Shelton Benjamin would shine in this match like he always does. Shelton's springboard senton off a ladder propped up on the ropes was the highlight of the match. This was yet another high quality match that not only provided many memorable spots, but this match kept the crowd rabid. Which only got worse once RVD won.

          Redemption seemed to be the true theme of the night as Mick Foley, Shawn Michaels, and even RVD, to a point, had had their rough patches and were ready for a second chance to overcome their obstacles. The first part of Wrestlemania's main event saw Kurt angle put the world heavyweight championship on the line against Randy Orton and Rey Mysterio in a triple threat match. I mention redemption because Rey had won the royal rumble and eared his spot at Mania to challenge for the title, however he was goated into putting his opportunity on the line against Orton and lost. Luckily Teddy long would right the wrong by adding a spot to the match for Rey. Rey would become the smallest champion in the history by producing the greatest upset in Wrestlemania history. This match had it's own set of tricks including a three man german suplex and two seperate spots in the match where both Rey and Randy tapped out to Angle without the ref ever seeing, thus allowing Mysterio to pull off the miracle of the midway.

          The second main event was a classic confrontation between the battle tested war horse Triple H and the Future face of the WWE in John Cena. What truly made this match special was the atmosphere inside there. It was this night that the famous "Cena hate" would become most noticeable. This match up would essentially split the crowd with a majority of the heet on Cena. The boo's got louder and louder as the match went on and it was clear that Chicago wanted the WWE's new golden goose to lay an egg. But John Cena being John Cena, he did something that would piss the fans off more than anything else. Get a tap out win over Triple H. This act in and of itself is very significant seeing as how up to this point Mania had only seen five other tap out victories and this particular victory came against a man who many thought would never tap to Cena's STFU. Triple H was literally inches away from the rope when he was forced to lay it down producing one of the most shocking finishes in Mania History.

          WrestleMania is a time honored tradition that has featured the greatest wrestlers in the history of the industry. With so many great moments it is hard to narrow it down to one card to rule them all. WrestleMania 22, however would produce one of the most memorable and complete shows ever. Almost all the pieces fit perfectly into place. The build up was on point, the match delivery was stellar, and the crowd was doing what ever the hell it felt like. WrestleMania 22 will surely go down as the greatest Mania event in the history of it's existence, in this fans opinion.
          Last edited by Bill Foley; 03-25-2012, 04:41 PM.
          "Turley OR NO ONE ELSE"

          Comment


          • #6
            Indy asked for an extra 24 hours, I am happy with this!

            Comment


            • #7
              The Greatest Wrestlemania How can one decide such a thing? Honestly even the worst Wrestlemania’s had something that made them great. This is not a question that is easy to answer or easy to debate on. Some may say it is based on preference but that is only a portion that determines a Wrestlemania’s greatness there comes much more when deciding greatness. The start of Legacies, epic encounters, history making moments, the end of eras, and the beginning of new blood success, major upsets, in short history making events. For these reasons I left the modern era behind to let it be judged for another generation. I bypassed the attitude era and went straight to WWF Classic with Wrestlemania VII. This Wrestlemania had all that I previously mentioned and by pure definition was great. When this debate is overthere will be no doubt Wrestlemania VII was the greatest Wrestlemania event.

              At Wrestlemania VII a legacy was started, what legacy you ask? Wrestlemania VII was the start of the most recognized events in modern day WWE The Undertaker’s Streak. It was that night in Los Angeles, California that that Taker would face Jimmy “Superfly” Snuka. The match would only last 4 minutes and 20 seconds but would solidify Taker in the list of heavy hitters for the rest of his career. These days it may seem like a distant memory looking at Taker’s first Wrestlemania victory but without it what would be the standard match at Mania these days? Throughout Wrestlemania there have been few constants. The World title as the main event has never been a constant, Royal Rumble winner in the Main Event has even lost its position in WWE. The Money In the Bank lasted only a few years. There have been no regular matches, kinds of matches, or true focuses at Wrestlemania except for Taker and his streak. So without the start of the streak at WM VII the question is would the streak have been made and if not what would be the standard constant of Wrestlemania?

              Also Wrestlemania marked the end of a Tag Era, aka the Hart Foundation era and Demolition era. Let’s start with Demolition. Ax & Smash paved a well known streak of domination and glory at Wrestlemania starting back at the Fourth Wrestlemania taking the titles from Strike Force. But in the course of years the mighty team became weak. Adding Crush to the fold didn’t help them hold onto the power and seemed to only hasten the demise of the team. After Ax left the company Demolition seemed to die a little faster. In fact this Wrestlemania marked the final active Tag Team showing of the Demolition group. How was it marked? With a loss that was from a team on loan from SWS which folded the following year. While one of the SWS stars was well known at this time they were not that grand and less known in the states. This was the end of Demolition for this decorated tag team their time had passed and they would watch from the side lines as the division was left to grow in a new direction. At least Demolition would not end up alone as The Hart Foundation joined them the same night.

              When you think of the WWF Tag Team division and the Titles with it you think Hart Foundation, Bret Hart and Jim Neidhart. The Hart Foundation by Wrestlemania VII had established their dominance in the Tag Division even further than Demolition had. The British Bulldogs, The Rockers, The Fabulous Rougeau Brothers, Demolition, Honky Tonk Man & Valentine, and the list can go on had encounters with The Hart foundation on its way to becoming one of if not the Greatest Tag Team in the WWF era. Wrestlemania VII though would be the last Wrestlemania to feature the original Hart Foundation and just like with Demolition it would be mark with not just a loss but losing the Tag Team titles. It was also not just any loss but a loss to a new blood team of the Nasty Boys. It wasn’t hard to see that the New Tag Team era had come and that Bret and Jim were no longer apart of this great division. The Hart Foundation disbanded and the new bloods in the Tag Team Division took off.

              That brings us to the New Blood Success of the Rookie Year Tornado Kerry Von Erich, The Nasty Boys, and The Rookie Legion of Doom. Kerry himself defeated established Superstar Dino Bravo in 3 minutes and 11 seconds which is a true success seeing the Canadian Strong man was decently tough and being beaten in this period of time was completely obtuse especially for the Rookie Sensation. Regardless of his tenure with WWF Dino lost in a very short period of time giving the New Blood Tornado showing that he may have lost the IC title but he lost no steam from it. Although 3 minutes and 11 seconds was an impressive victory Legion of Doom beat it when they beat the established wrestlers turned team of Power and Glory in 59 seconds. While Power and Glory had been around only a little over as long as LOD Hercules and Raul Roma were established in the WWF far longer than LOD. Roma and Hercules would not proceed much further than the feud they had with LOD. LOD would go on to win the WWF tag titles twice once while making a comeback. Neither Roma or Hercules had a comeback to the WWF of that size if at all.

              But of the New Blood that had the best showing it has to go to the Nasty Boys Taking the Tag Team titles from The Hart Foundation. We are talking the two most drastic differences in styles, Technical Hart and Brawling Nasty. Brian Knobbs and Jerry Saggs were this disgusting, dirty, & dirty fighting team that had only been in WWF the previous December that is a span of three to four months and they dethrone the established top dog team of the Hart Foundation. The beginning and end of an era started there. The end of clean and wholesome tag team division ended and the of the dirty and edge pushing began. From here the New Bloods would come out and start their rule in the flowing years till new bloods would dominate the whole show.

              Next we can look at two epic encounters that made this PPV huge, Hogan Vs Slaughter and Virgil Vs Ted Dibiase. For Virgil and Dibiase it was simple it was Boss Vs Worker, Slave Vs Master (No Racial pun intended.) For years Virgil had been under Ted’s boot. Ted Dibiase was sure to make Virgil’s life hell and to make sure he knew he was beneath him. Finally Virgil started to act against him and finally would attack his boss. Finally Virgil was wanting to fight and he was in the ring with the man who always wanted him under his feet. It spoke to every fan who had the pain in the back boss or anyone who was pushed to feeling less for one reason or like they were not worth as much as another. Since the match spoke to so many it was a huge match. Despite the fact it ended in countout it made everyone beg for more to have one stand over the other in triumph which allowed for WWF to make this a longer term feud than one would have expected.

              Hogan Vs Slaughter, Mr. USA Vs The American Turncoat, where do I begin with this match. Since 1983 Hogan and the World title were synonymous with each other. If it wasn’t with him it didn’t stray too far. The year prior Hogan lost the belt to the Ultimate Warrior since that he was on the War path to get the title back. He took a back seat to the year of the Warrior and now he wanted his center stage back. Hogan bought his time and then stopped waiting. Starting at the Royal Rumble he did not step down and one it. Wrestlemania was Hogan’s PPV and this was only one of a few where he was not walking into the event with the title in hand, and he wanted it to be one of the many where he walked away with it in hand. On the other side of the ring Sergeant Slaughter with his mustache and turbin, the American soldier turned Middle Eastern supporter. At the time the one thing a soldier would be cursed for was turning on his country but siding with the enemy on top of it for shame. Just like Hogan Slaughter made his mark at the Royal Rumble taking the title from Warrior ending his close to year run. Just like in the Middle East controversy surrounded Slaughters time with the gold. Macho had screwed Warrior out of the title leading to the under handed nature like many people felt Middle Eastern (Arabian) countries were being. The match wrote itself the under handed, cheating, shameful Slaughter Vs The Real American, eat your vitamins, and say your prayers Hogan. All the America hates Vs all that American stands for. If Hogan wins than Justice and right wins; if Slaughter wins than evil and villainy dominates all. What more could you ask from the Main Event? When Hogan won it oh my god all was right with the world and USA was on top. It gave you all you could want.

              If there was one match that topped the fire of the main event it was the Epic History maker that was The Ultimate Warrior Vs The Macho Man Randy Savage. I could say this all started when Warrior won the title but no for this we must go back even further to when Macho won his first IC title. I am crazy for doing this? NO. Savage winning the IC title set the tone for all champions that would follow, it went from Savage to Steamboat to Honky Tonk to Warrior. Warrior seemed to be following in Savages footsteps but always wanting to go a step further. It was the unsung rivalry of one up. Savage was IC champ so Warrior did it twice. Savage won the title at Wrestlemania Warrior did the same and retained the IC title. Savage wrestled Hogan in and epic Wrestlemania Warrior did the same but walked away with the title. The one thing that that Savage had on Warrior was a Wrestlemania to Wrestlemania run. Warrior however was on his way to the same and possibly even further if he retained. All this was behind the scenes feuding so far behind the scenes that even the main players didn’t even play it up. What they did play was Savage wanting to become World champion again. Adding Sherri to the mix was just icing on the cake because she could push buttons not just with Warrior but with the crowd. Savage screwing Warrior out of the title to the Turncoat Slaughter and having Sherri’s shrieking voice at the same time just made the fans despise him perfectly. The fans may have perfectly want both Savage and Sherri out of the company and with Warrior screwed out of his gold made him want to anything on the line to get Savage. Can the scene be made any more perfect for a retirement match? Savage had done all a singles wrestler could dream of doing in WWF, & Warrior had simply done more. One needed to end the other to establish their place in the bull pen. In the essence this match had stolen the limelight from Hogan and Slaughter. The Mega Power Vs Warrior who would retire who? Easy way to see that this match stole the spotlight was the fact it went longer than the main event. In all honesty these two gave more to this match than either gave in their matches with Hogan, granted with Warrior his effort with Hogan still drained him. The match had the setup and the ending that people could live with especially since Savage didn’t stay away long. The match was memorable and still is talked about to this day.

              Epic matches, History makers, New Blood, the start of a legacy and the end of eras Wrestlemania VII had it all. This wasn’t just some toss away PPV that the Modern Era of WWE has made even this great event into. While some Wrestlemania’s may have had a bigger match in them few to none had all these in the same event to make it great. Taker starting the undefeated streak, The Hart Foundation and Demolition’s dominate status in the Tag Team division came to an end, LOD/Von Erich/Nasty Boys all showing they were the force in WWF. Boss Vs Worker, Real American Vs Turncoat, & Savage Vs Warrior for retirement just but the ice cream topping on the PPV that greatness demanded. Wrestlemania VII gave so match can there be any doubt it was the greatest Wrestlemania Event? No it can’t be doubted.
              Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat.-Kahless

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm not going to attempt to sit here and type out a novel just for the sake of doing so. Yeah it might be a good idea to help me win but length should never be the determining factor in deciding an argument as I'm sure it's not. My point is I'm gonna just give you the important things to think about in arguing this debate. Either my points are good, or they're are not. With that said let me get to my points. Right now I have two reponsibilities. Prove Mania 22 was the greatest of all time and prove why WM VII isn't. First I'm gonna do what every debater would do, trash the opposition.


                Originally posted by The Indy Junkie View Post
                At Wrestlemania VII a legacy was started, what legacy you ask? Wrestlemania VII was the start of the most recognized events in modern day WWE The Undertaker’s Streak.
                Do you remember who Babe Ruth hit his first home run against? Who did Bret Favre play against in his first of a record setting 297 straight starts? The first is usually the most insignificant especially since the streak itself wouldn't even get recognized until the number had hit double digits. Nobody watched WM VIII the next year to see if the streak would continue. Nobody was talking about how the Undertaker defeated a worn out and washed up Jimmy Snuka. A Snuka who's high flying style had caught up with him. Snuka was for all intents and purposes done. In this match up Snuka would get demolished in a very forgetable outing being touted as the Phenom, how ironic. The announcers cared more about who was in the urn then what was actually going on in the match. My point is simply how can we tout the first match of a streak that would go un-noticed for almost a decade.


                Originally posted by The Indy Junkie View Post
                When you think of the WWF Tag Team division and the Titles with it you think Hart Foundation, Bret Hart and Jim Neidhart.
                Originally posted by The Indy Junkie View Post
                It was also not just any loss but a loss to a new blood team of the Nasty Boys.
                The first quote I think we can all agree with, however the second one was hard to stomach. Calling the Nasty Boys the new blood is very hard to fathom. First this new blood and new direction for the tag team division would mark the rise of the brawlers and the decline of the art of tag team wrestling. What made the Hart Foundation and other tag teams of that time period great was the contrast of styles. The greatest tag teams in history usual pocess two distinct styles. The Nasty Boys were carbon copies of one another and were certainly far from being the future of the division. They would soon drop the title to another pair of brawlers known as the LOD. The LOD were also referenced here as the new blood which I find a little hard to swallow as they had been around for ten years prior to there short lived run in the WWF. This changing of the guard would prove to be more detrimental then good. The LOD was put over by their clones, Demolition. Demolition would never recover from the loss and would almost lose all their credibility over night. This surely was the beginning of the end for what was
                a deep tag team division.

                Originally posted by The Indy Junkie View Post
                Next we can look at two epic encounters that made this PPV huge, Hogan Vs Slaughter and Virgil Vs Ted Dibiase.
                I think we need to explain the definition of Epic for a moment. Epic is simply, Epic. There is nothing Epic about Mike Jones, aka Virgil. Virgil was a hated henchman of the evil million dollar man. He got tired of being mistreated but it wasn't until a certain rebel, Roddy Piper, got involved that anyone even took an interest in this match up. It was Piper the camera was on most in that match, the man who sat in a chair with crutches outside the ring was in the shot more than the two competitors. It was Piper that made the victory even possible by being the distraction that caused Dibiase to even get counted out In the first place. The end of the attraction, as they were called in those days, was more about an injured Piper and less about a man overcoming the odds and sticking it to his former boss. Virgil was hands down over shadowed by Piper thus making this match anything but Epic.

                I could sit here and pick apart the card all day but I won't. What I can do is simplify it for you in the form of some numbers. Well known writer Dave Meltzer put out an article rating the Mania matches. It might not mean a whole lot but the one thing I can take from the ratings is this, in at least one other person's eye WM 22 was better than WM VII. WM VII matches would average only a 1.6 rating. WM 22 would have it's match rating average at over 2.5. Realistically it might not mean much but it does prove the point that WM 22 was at least seen as a top notch PPV while WM VII was seen as very insignificant.

                Originally posted by The Indy Junkie View Post
                The start of Legacies, epic encounters, history making moments, the end of eras, and the beginning of new blood success, major upsets, in short history making events.
                I would like to use my opponents own criteria to prove why WM 22 was the greatest Mania event of all time. Firstly the start of Legacies or in this case a restart. The legacy of ECW would see a reprise beginning with the Money in the bank victory of RVD which would pave they way for ECW's One Night Stand 2006 and the much anticipated re-launch of ECW. At the time it was a wrestling fans dream come true. Secondly The Hardcore match between Edge and Mick Foley can only be seen as nothing less than an epic encounter. Thirdly Rey Mysterio would make history in what is seen as one of the biggest upsets in Wrestlemania History. Forth, the end of an era would come in unique fashion in the Michaels Vs McMahon match as it would be the last time we saw Vince in a high quality match at Mania, The Hart ass whipping of WM XXVI would be the only other time Vince would step in the ring and that was a far cry from anything resembling a match. WM 22 was the last time we would truly feel the satifaction of seeing the most evil man in the WWE get his just desserts. And Lasty the dawning of the New bloods. John Cena would defeat Triple H in a match that many saw as a passing of the torch and really the biggest match that Cena had been in up to that point. Getting Triple H to tap out was not only historic but very unexpected. Say what you want about Cena, this was easily his brightest moment in Mania's Hitory and will forever be remembered as one of the biggest upsets in Mania History as well.

                In the end the case is simple. Wrestlemania 22 was the grand daddy of them all because it was simply the best. It gave you everything you could expect and more. Wrestlemania 22 stood out on it's own without having to rely on a war to get buy rates up. Wrestlemania VII was nothing more than a political piggyback ride that saw a wrestling re-enactment of the gulf war. Wrestlemania 22 relied on the sheer will of each competitior to win. More importantly, wrestlemania 22 was more about the matches and less about the story behind the matches. The storylines only enhanced the matches instead of becoming more important than the matches that they built. Wrestlemania VII will forever be remembered as the day the main event was overshadowed by a retirement that didn't even stick and a main event that could only have ended one way. Wrestlemania 22 will forever be known as the One Mania to rule them all.
                "Turley OR NO ONE ELSE"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Indie has a week to settle this

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Insignificant, my opponent threw this word out so easily that it sickens me. Even if it was the worst Wrestlemania in history no Wrestlemania event should ever carry that word with it. At least we can agree length should not be the deciding factor, but sometimes length is needed to make a point clear. SO before I tear apart his rebuttal I will dissect his original argument.

                    He called the Match between Mickie James and Trish Stratus a “the culmination of a very creative story line,” it was not very creative. This story line can be linked back to Stephen King and any overly excessive fan or just excessive individual plot, which there have been many, that has been done. Don’t get me wrong here Mickie and Trish played their roles perfectly, but this was far from creative especially because the excessive fans have been in WWE in the women’s division no less with Tori and Sable. The key difference is Mickie was over the top crazy and actually won the title from the person she was a fan of. “Headline the event,” my opponent tries to bring up. This was the sixth match on the card and lasted less than 15 min. Also WWE decided it was better there than at the second to last match which was anther women’s match but was a pillow fight. While it was far better match it would not have been a headliner. Again don’t get me wrong women have been proving they can put a man’s match to shame. While this was a great match with decent interesting storylines it is not the high match my opponent makes it out to be.

                    Now let’s move on to Foley Vs Edge. “Long sought after Wrestlemania moment”? Foley was in WWE from 96 to 2008, his first Wrestlemania was in 97. In total before Wrestlemania 22 Foley had wrestled 5 Wrestlemania matches. His first two were back to back and for the WWF tag team titles, double count out & Dumpster match victory. Third match DQ victory over Big Show, Fifth was WM 20 loss teamed with the Rock Vs Evolution a 3 on 2. His fourth was a Main Event for the World title. Sought after? Maybe, long sought after? Not even close to someone who main-evented the event at one time. “One of the worst looking bumps, Sending Lita shooting down on her face,” this is just giving Lita more credit than is close to required. I looked over that clothesline bump many times Lita’s face doesn’t hit the ring, rope, or the floor in the fall she lands cleanly on her butt. Tail bone hurt maybe but it is something she would bounce back from. In the end the worst thing to happen to Lita was Barbed wire Mr. Socko, yes bad but not sick, well at least not that kind of sick. Bill also brought up the flaming table and it “burning” Edge. Yes the flaming table was cool but lasted all of ten seconds and was extinguished right after Mick and Edge went through it. Edge may have been singed but not burned. My opponent even goes as far as to say “The carnage left behind from the two men's total hatred for one another was literally littered about the arena,” interesting considering the match never left ringside. Again an embellishment for a match that was great and a good hardcore match but doesn’t need to be given a bigger hype. I’ll give Bill some credit though the thumbtack and shaky Edge was described well.

                    Next we can move onto the “Destroy the Boss fest.” The greedy monger Vince Vs born again Michaels. Boss Vs Employee, wait a minute this sounds familiar oh yes when Ted Dibiase Vs Virgil occurred it was the same thing. While Virgil may be no Shawn Michaels the situation is the same both were beaten and insulted and finally couldn’t take it. Both were crazy physical but the difference here is that Virgil didn’t need weaponry to make Ted scared. Shawn was always known for his stellar matches and I do realize the change in needs but it was unreal. With all that was in this though and with a Hardcore and MITB before it was this added stipulation really called for the answer is no.

                    Bill notes the MITB, the spotfest it was and the rabid fans. One must beg the question though remove the ladder and just make it a plain match would it have been the match it was? In fact let’s actually look back at his “Five Star” matches. A Hardcore match, a No Holds Barred, and a Multi-person Ladder match in case you missed it they were all stipulation matches. Now a question is begging to be answered on their own no stipulations would these matches have been half as memorable or intriguing? Let’s look over his main points again. “Spear into the hidden barbed wired,” no Hardcore stipulation eliminates that or get Foley disqualified. Thumbtacks are gone so that point is gone, Lita’s bump, flaming table take out the stipulation and all this goes away. So the match seems great based on the stipulation not on the actual match. Next Michaels Vs McMahon the biggest meat in this part of his argument was the blind elbow to Vince in the can, no stipulation no blind elbow so his big point was built on the stipulation. Money in the Bank, the match is centered around the ladder without it the match losses all the spots and must be redesigned. Now in comparison how many of the big matches I brought up has a stipulation? ZERO! In fact at Wrestlemania VII there was only one stipulation match and that was the Blindfold match slow paced and somewhat dull, maybe can be claimed slowed the match and slow to a halt.

                    Rey Mysterio winning the world title was an epic moment but to call it the “Greatest upset in Wrestlmania History” is a bit of a stretch. You forget Lawrence Taylor in XI, a short notice football player turned wrestler who was so winded at the end he needed to be aided out by his team proving not just anyone can do a match. Maybe Rocky Maivia in his first Wrestlemania event less than six months into his rookie year in WWF beating battle tested Sultan Aka Rikishi with Backland and Cornette in his corner? Better upset Too Cool and Chyna beating the Radicalz of Benoit, Saturn, and Malenko at Wrestlemania 2000, that could be a greater upset as Scotty and Brian were nowhere near the levels of any of the Radicalz. Maybe Edge and Christian’s win in the Triangle Ladder match against The Dudleyz and Hardyz at WM 2000? Afterall these guys had lost ladder matches to the Hardyz and had been losing to the Dudleyz. Heck let’s go to X-7 when Angle a barely two year in WWF less than three in the business all together beat Christopher Michael Benoit a near 16 year vet at the time who had been tested around the world won numerous tiles around the world and earned his spot a thousand times over. In many eyes that could be the greatest WM upset known. Why not look at 2003 when Team Angle a less than one year team comprised of two guys who had only been with WWE maybe three years only one who had wrestling before WWE beating the Uncle and nephew veteran team Eddie and Chavo Guerrero, with the additions of Benoit and Rhyno that is an impressive upset. Or why not re-analize the WM 22 event when Boogeyman beat Booker T? Anyone of these can be seen as a greater upset and let me explain why.

                    Rey by this time had been in WWE long enough not to be a rookie. He was a battle tested, War proven Veteran of just 28 days short of 17 years. He wasn’t facing Andre and Big Show he was facing Kurt and Randy yes he gave up plenty in weight but were not talking small person, trying to be PC here, Vs Andre the Giant. The match was better defined as “Old & Busted, New Hotness.” Rey was the old seasoned Vet, Kurt was the busted up champion, and Randy was the new hotness. When Rey won it wasn’t an upset it was a vet claim his deserved spot. It was not a miracle match it was the demonstration of skill by Rey and Randy and a wee bit o luck not being seen tapping.

                    Old War Horse Vs Future Face of WWE? Alright I’ll give you that one match, Cena was hated and people wanted him to lose. Heck I was watching the event live on PPV and I’ll admit I had the same desire. But still this was not the overly significant event like you want to be, why? It was the only 20+ min match of the night HHH was worn out it was not like 10 min passed a HHH tapped. The end was coming no one knew how it would come but they knew the end was coming what it became was an underestimation by your “Old War Horse.”

                    Now to crush Bill’s attack, first he attacked Taker’s streak saying who cares he beat Snuka. Well it is hard to have an undefeated streak if he loses his first outing. Trying to compare this to Bret Favre and Babe Ruth is a fool comparison as both are tied to teams and both sides come with losses on their ways to the goals. Taker’s pride lays in the fact he has an UNDEFEATED streak, not a winning streak. He hasn’t tapped, been pinned, been disqualified, or counted out at Wrestlemania. While yes this is not the most recognizable victory in the history of Taker’s streak it is the most important it is his start. Like when Ali claimed he was the champ it was not true till he won it from Liston. Without the first move nothing else comes to pass.

                    In the WWF at this time Nasty Boys were “New Blood” why can this be said? It was their rookie year in WWF to WWF yes they were new despite they had been around the block more than once. LOD falls under the same title, while they were beyond well known around the world it was their rookie time in WWF. How can you say this was the beginning of the end for that tag team division? It was a start for the over the top teams that would come over the course of the flowing decade.

                    With Virgil it was not himself who was epic but the concept he represented for the match. It was the disgruntled employee beaten and broken wanting his vengeance. Pre-cursor to Vince Vs Michaels is what this match can been recognized as. Now with respect to Piper honestly he was need to give Virgil some spice, still did not take away from the fact this was a match everyone wanted to have at least against their boss.

                    Dave Meltzer rating Wrestlemania events, can you say insignificant to that? Yes I can. You show ratings of the average match, what about the whole show? Buy rates? What about the hard cold numbers? You know the truest factual numbers. Since Bill does not mark any of this neither will I and I’ll make further note of other things he left alone. Savage Vs Warrior and Hogan Vs Slaughter two of my main tiers, not even a sentence to mark they weren’t important. Yet he still has the gull to say Wrestlemania VII was insignificant. Even though I truly believe WM 22 was not the greatest of all time it was significant.

                    Finally Bill tried to use my criteria to defend his PPV. I must say not the best explanations but a fine job showing his Wrestlemania was good. But as Bill has done through his entire argument he over embellished some of the action. ECW legacy reborn? That is giving WWE way too credit. It was not the ECW we all knew and loved it was a hack. And the legacy wasn’t started at Wrestlemania it wasn’t even really setup. That came a few months later. I’ll let Bill have the rest but remind him Rey’s win was not that much of an upset if it can be called one at all.

                    So let’s break this down. Bill Foley maid many good points in his debate however he over exaggerated on a bit or was incomplete in a lot. Starting with woman’s match which in the long run was a rehash of storyline that already been, good match but not all Billy tried to make it. His Five star matches of course were tainted by stipulations or he tried making them more with levels of inaccuracy. Now all that could be forgiven he was trying to make a point. But one thing that cannot be over looked is the gross insult to wrestling that he called a Wrestlemania insignificant. This was an offense without even saying it was mine. However with the fact it was Wrestlemania VII where Ultimate Warrior Vs Macho Man, Hogan won the World title and where the Tag Team titles changed hands alone make it a significant event. While Bill had to throw in an embellishment to make his point for WM 22 I needed no such aid. Wrestlemania VII was able to stand on its own merit. Each match had its own pride and addition to the Event itself. The only true blemish on the show was the Blind fold match and it was still interesting. Wrestlemania 22 needed bells and whistles to get attention, even without Bill’s aid. Wrestlemania VII just needed to be itself and that is why it was the greatest Wrestlemania Event.
                    Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat.-Kahless

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                    • #11
                      Thats a wrap gentleman

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