I will take the Rock.
Who should win next years big Wrestlemania clash? Jon Cena or the Rock?
The user who selects the first option will start the debate
This is not for the title, Macho is filling in twice as we had an odd number
I will take the Rock.
Goldey spelt John Cena wrong...
So I guess I'm debating for Jon Cena, whoever that is.
Goldie79; Future UD ChampionInevitable
Wrestlemania 28 is in Miami, The Rocks home. He may not have been active for years, but he still should win. We all know that John Cena is the face of the WWE, but having The Rock back for Wrestlemania is a very big deal and Cena doesnt need to beat Rock to maintain any type of push. The Rock also should win to erase the terrible match he and Mick Foley had with Evolution at Wrestlemania 20. What does John Cena gain by winning this match? Absolutely nothing.
Reading through your opening statement it is clear that you have three main arguments as to why The Rock should beat John Cena at WrestleMania 28. These are:
• It is being hosted in The Rock’s home town of Miami, thus giving more back to the fans.
• Despite being inactive for 7 years, The Rock is a Legend and a loss to The Rock won’t negatively affect John Cena.
• The Rock’s last match at WrestleMania was at WrestleMania XX where he lost a handicap match along side Mick Foley to Evolution.
You also have the closing statement of; “What does John Cena gain by winning this match? Absolutely nothing.” This statement is very close minded, but we’ll come back to that later on.
As the whole point behind this debate is a WrestleMania match, I will counter each point by using matches from a single WrestleMania event. The WrestleMania event I shall be using is WrestleMania X8. WrestleMania X8 was hosted at the SkyDome in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. This means that three different wrestlers were competing in their hometown. These three were; Christian, Edge, and Trish Stratus.
Christian was featured in a match against DDP for the European Championship; the end result of this match was a loss for Christian in his hometown. Maybe this is ok though, as Christian was a heel at the time, maybe losing in your hometown can help build the heat towards you. So provided that both Edge and Trish Stratus won their respective matches, then the heel loss and face win theory would work out. Whilst Edge helps keep this theory alive as he beat Booker T later on in the night, unfortunately this theory is obviously just a theory as Trish Stratus couldn’t deliver and score the second victory for the faces in their hometown. This would of course mean that the win-loss record for wrestlers competing in their hometown of Toronto, Ontario, Canada ends at 1-2. Due to Trish Stratus being a face at the time, and despite the loss, following her match she still received a decent crowd reaction from her hometown fans. If Trish Stratus can be treated like the winner by the hometown crowd even though she lost, why wouldn’t The Rock be able to do the same?
The Rock is clearly a much bigger name then Trish Stratus, and all around the world fans still love The Rock. So even if The Rock did lose, what’s stopping the fans from supporting The Rock with the respect they treated Trish Stratus with back at WrestleMania X8? WrestleMania X8 ended with 2 out of 3 hometown wrestlers losing, but it didn’t end there, because even before WrestleMania X8 went on the air there was a six man tag team match. This match featured another Toronto wrestler; Test, which saw him team up with a fellow Canadian; Lance Storm, Test and Lance Storm were also teamed with Mr. Perfect, and this trio lost to the trio of Rikishi, Albert, and Scotty 2 Hotty. That brings the count of hometown win-loss to 1-3. This would also mean that overall it would be 1-4 for the Canadian wrestlers. The only other Canadian wrestler to compete at WrestleMania X8 was the first ever Undisputed champion; Chris Jericho.
This was the event where the first ever undisputed Champion; Chris Jericho, lost his title to the second ever Undisputed Champion; Triple H. Chris Jericho beat The Rock and Stone Cold in the same night to become the first ever undisputed champion. He then went on to beat The Rock at the Royal Rumble and Stone Cold at No Way Out. He had an impressive 3 month reign as the champion, which is actually a long title reign by Attitude Era standards. He picked up two victories over each of the two biggest names in wrestling at the time. Chris Jericho was the undisputed champion and was making history, and that history came to an end in his home country. So if Chris Jericho can lose everything in his homeland, why can’t The Rock just lose one match?
But perhaps I shouldn’t be focusing on what the Canadians did at WrestleMania X8, but rather the wrestlers in question. These guys being The Rock and John Cena. John Cena didn’t actually make his way onto the main roster for WWE until later on in 2002 so obviously he wasn’t featured on the card at WrestleMania X8. The Rock on the other hand, was competing in a match which was billed as ‘icon vs. icon’ where he competed against the one and only Hulk Hogan. There was a lot of hype and build up to this match, and the match itself certainly delivered. Hulk Hogan was the man main eventing WrestleMania 10 years prior to WrestleMania X8, at WrestleMania VIII where he beat Psycho Sid. Hulk Hogan was the man that WrestleMania was built around and is unquestionably the biggest mainstream name to have ever come out of wrestling. He was the biggest face of the past, and in 2002 he went up against (arguably) the biggest face of wrestling’s present. WrestleMania X8; Icon vs. Icon; Hulk Hogan vs. The Rock.
The end result? The Rock pinning Hulk Hogan cleanly. Something which very rarely happens with Hulk Hogan. A loss for Hogan is rare enough, but actually having it done cleanly and not having something he can then use to get a rematch is even rarer. And that is exactly what Hogan did at WrestleMania X8; he lost cleanly to The Rock. Something which has only happened at one other WrestleMania either prior to after WrestleMania X8. Hulk Hogan one of the most ego driven, self preservation wrestlers ever lost to The Rock cleanly and thus passed the torch onto the next generation. The present day hero beat the hero from the past. Skipping ahead 10 years, WrestleMania 28; The Rock vs. John Cena. A match which is following the same formula as The Rock and Hulk Hogan. If a self driven ego maniac can lose to the next generation, why can’t a man who is well known for putting over other wrestlers?
The Rock beat Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania X8, just like John Cena should beat The Rock at WrestleMania 28, and just like whoever the biggest name is in Wrestling in ten years time should beat John Cena at WrestleMania 38. These are matches built on nostalgia and hype, and the face of the past doesn’t gain anything other then showing his generation of wrestlers were better then the current crop of wrestlers. But if they lose, then the next generation of wrestlers looks stronger and can allow wrestling to keep on growing . Looking at the bigger picture of this match, John Cena should definitely beat The Rock at WrestleMania 28.
The remaining point you raised was that The Rock’s last WrestleMania match was at WrestleMania XX and he lost a handicap match along side Mick Foley to Evolution. This is exactly the point I was making in The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan match at WrestleMania X8, The Rock ‘N’ Sock Connection taking the loss to Evolution helped build up the next generation as Randy Orton and Batista both went on to win the World Heavyweight Championship by the following years WrestleMania. Having wrestlers return to have ‘one more match’ only works if they help build up the guys they are facing, and the large majority of time that involves taking a loss. And when it comes to The Rock, he has never been afraid of taking a loss, infact that is often viewed as one of his best qualities. The Rock was able to see the bigger picture and helped build the next generation through selfless acts. While losses to guys like Billy Gunn and The Hurricane would seem like a bad thing and make the majority of wrestlers look weak, it never negatively affected The Rock; if anything it made the fans love him more.
Now whilst not everyone he tried to help was successful in reaching the next level, like Billy Gunn or The Hurricane, there were many more that were successful. And that’s something that is often associated with The Rock; the fact that he is willing to give back. The Rock is a man who is actually willing to take a loss, and if he beat Hulk Hogan who very rarely let’s people gain a win over him, then The Rock should have no problem in doing the exact same thing and taking a loss to John Cena. Chris Jericho can lose the history he built up in his home country, Trish Stratus still received a decent crowd reaction after the loss, Hulk Hogan was willing to take a loss, and the list goes on and on. With The Rock being a stronger character and more willing to give back through out his entire career he should be able to see the bigger picture and allow John Cena to win.
Now you’re closing statement was; “What does John Cena gain by winning this match? Absolutely nothing.” As I said earlier, this statement is very close minded. You have only taken into consideration what it means for The Rock and what it means for John Cena. Not what it means for wrestling as a whole. The bigger picture of wrestling has always been to build the next generation, and the way they do that is by having the older wrestler lose in their final match thus allowing the current generation the ability to look stronger. Almost every wrestler leaves on their back. Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, etc, they’ve all had that loss to the next generation, and it is actually the aftermath that shows their true worth. Despite the loss, each of them received a standing ovation from the fans and were treated with the respect they deserved. A true legends worth is shown after that final loss when they still receive a standing ovation.
What does John Cena receive from winning this match? He receives the torch, he shows the world that the current generation is on par with the past and can allow the wrestling circle of life to continue to remain strong. What does The Rock gain from winning this match? A win, and the ability to make the present day wrestlers look weak. If someone who hasn’t competed in 8 years can beat your top guy then there is a clear message; the present day wrestlers aren’t as good as the attitude era. But, what does The Rock gain from losing this match? A lot more then if he wins it. The only logical conclusion is that John Cena wins at WrestleMania 28.
Goldie79; Future UD ChampionInevitable
Roughroad, stay out of this thread, you are not involved in the debate.
We all know that Rock was willing to put anybody over, and that is what is really awesome about him, but The Rock put the next generation over all the time before he left. How does Cena winning build up him and the next generation when Cena has already been built up and is the defacto face of the WWE already? The Rock should win for the simple fact that he has always done what he thought was right by putting over people over. For once he and the WWE need to do what is right for The Rock and allow him to win.
I think you missed the point I was making. John Cena is an already established wrestler. A win over The Rock wouldn't establish him as part of the next generation. He already is the next generation, infact he is the man leading the next generation. As a result of John Cena being the 'leader' of the WWE locker room he is the man that represents every single member of the WWE roster. The Rock on the other hand is part of the past generation; he is part of the Attitude Era which was lead by The Rock and Stone Cold. The attitude era is often looked upon as the greatest era in wrestling. The Rock, along with Stone Cold, was the leader of that Era. Now The Rock is set to face John Cena at WrestleMania 28. This will be a match which will feature the biggest name of the attitude era against the biggest name of the entertainment era. Past vs. Present.
In wrestling, just like in any other aspect of life, the only way to move forward is if you live in the present. If you live in the past and try to cling onto former glory, then you are not going to be able to build a strong future. If however you live in the present day then you will be able to prepare yourself for everything the future holds. This is the same basis when any match in wrestling occurs which consists of past vs. present. If the past wins the match then it sends the message that the past is better then the present. And if the past is better then the present, how can you expect the future to be any better? John Cena is the best of his generation. How will it look if the best of the current generation loses to someone who retired 10 years earlier?
The Rock was in his prime in the late ‘90’s, John Cena on the other hand is currently in his prime. How is that going to look if a retired wrestler who is over a decade past his prime can beat a guy who is currently at his highest level? It will make the present look weak. It will show that John Cena, and through extension; the entire WWE roster, is not at The Rock’s level. And this is at a time when The Rock is 10 years past being at that level. So what it effectively does is make the entire WWE roster look like Billy Gunn during the attitude era. The entire roster would be considered for the IC Championship at best, while the big boys like The Rock and Austin fight for the WWE Championship. It is a simple concept, to build a strong future you must have a strong present. And the only way to show that the present is strong is by promoting it over the past.
The Rock is part of the past and should therefore realise that it is more important to empower the current generation of wrestlers then it is for him to get a win. The Rock isn’t Hulk Hogan, he realises the importance of allowing the company to grow. Even back when he was at the height of his career he was still helping the lower card get over with the fans. So surely he should be able to see the bigger picture and realise that it is important that John Cena wins. Hulk Hogan is a man well known for abusing his position and using backstage politics to keep himself at the top. But yet even the backstage political nightmare that is Hulk Hogan was able to see the bigger picture at WrestleMania X8 and as a result he lost cleanly to The Rock. He passed the torch on. He allowed The Rock and the attitude era generation to look stronger then the past generations. If Hulk Hogan can do this, there is no reason why The Rock can’t do the same for John Cena.
The Rock vs. John Cena has the bigger picture of the wrestling circle of life, and to keep that life strong and that circle still in tact The Rock has to lose to John Cena at WrestleMania 28. There is no two ways about it. Either Cena wins and wrestling can remain looking strong or The Rock wins and WWE admits defeat and that they just can’t top the attitude era.
Goldie79; Future UD ChampionInevitable
Over to the judges. Thankyou both
For the last 12 months I believed in theory that John Cena was the right choice to win the match. But after tonight, theory wouldn't have done WrestleMania 28 justice. I thought with my head that for business purposes that John Cena should be the one to go over as it's normally traditional for the established to put over the guy who is currently active, or the guy who needs the win the most. Theory led us to a logical conclusion, yet when it came to the match, the atmosphere told us a different yet simple answer to this debate.
Throughout the match, John Cena was made to look strong and classy over what the announcers hinted to as a 'ring rust' Rock. According to logic, John Cena was doing EVERYTHING right, but the majority of the crowd HATED it! The crowd hated that their guy was getting schooled by the 'teacher's pet'. At the end of the day, the crowd made their own minds up, and that's what is most important. The WWE have manufactured John Cena for so long and finding all reasons to justify his popularity by calling him a hard worker, a giver to charity, that they underestimated the most important factor that John Cena doesn't have - likeability!
To put it brief and simple (like Cman's straight to the point argument, whom argued for the Rock and was right, but was outclassed by an intelligently, lengthy rebuttal), people like the Rock. You can't manufacture likeability, and you can't manipulate people into disliking the Rock's and Hogan's of wrestling. This was proven as jealous remarks spoken by many of the Rock's peers fell on deaf ears. If people like you, then they like you. If they don't, then get the hint, WWE!
Last edited by Shockage; 04-02-2012 at 10:16 AM.