Faction Warfare Round 2: Degeneration X '97 vs Fabulous Freebirds

[Shockage]

HHH wouldn't have stood toe to toe with Gordy. HHH's character was deemed too aroogant which cost him matches against a young Rocky Maivia for the IC Title, and Mankind at SummerSlam '97 cage match which Chyna interfered in and backfired. Gordy was also a UWF Champion during his Freebird years, anyone who wrestled in Mid-South/UWF was tough in Bill Watts book. Watts would basically fire wrestlers if they lost pub fights to regular guys or non wrestlers. So of couse Gordy would destroy HHH, of course Chyna's cheating would eventually get the better of her. Of course the Freebirds would defeat DX '97.

[Turley]

losses to The Rock and Mick Foley dont exactly make you a muppet...

its easy to pick two significant losses and try to define the character by them. HHH may have had an arrogant character but he picked up wins against both those guys as well. Wins against Ken Shamrock, Goldust, Bret Hart, Owen Hart make for a pretty impressive run at this time.

[Shockage]

When did HHH win a match against Bret Hart? How clean was the win that HHH can claim a win over Bret? Was the match that high profiled that it was on a ppv? Show me, where?

The simple fact is that DX was Shawn Michaels' entourage, Freebirds were an all star ensemble, a well oiled trio equipped to take on any body, any group, in any territory they wrestled in. History doesn't lie. Freebirds' got this win.

[Turley]

a win against Bret Hart is a win against Bret Hart. Not too many guys that are supposedly just part of someobody's entourage can boast that. August 1997 HHH beat Bret via count out on RAW. I dont think it matters that it wasnt on ppv and that it was a countout. It still goes down as a win against the World Champ of the time. This was in a time when tv matches were huge, the very middle of the Monday Night Wars. It is arguable that there was never a period of time where television matches were worth more. Both WWF and WCW were pulling out all the stops on television. If HHH was just a part of an entourage, and not a credible wrestler in his own right, then he simply wouldnt be beating the World Champ.

[Shockage]

hahaha, a count out victory on Raw, like that was supposed to cement HHH's place. You know that a DQ or a Count Out finish either hints a rematch or that they had to go with a believable finisher right? Hahahaha @ HHH and his count out victory. I've never heard HHH go onto boast that he beat Bret Hart by count out, that's just ludicrous! The Genius Lanny Poffo has a count out win over Hulk Hogan from a '89 Saturday Night's Main Event, I've never heard Genius boast about it. The Freebirds still walk out victorious.

[Goldie79]

At this point in his career Triple H didn't have it on his own.
Shawn pulled a lot of strings to help his friends career advance ... ie a spot in DX, IC titles, KOTR winner.... (as Tripper carefully learned from the best and would later become an even more ferocious manipulater than Shawn was)

It took a long time for Tripper to manouveur himself into a top position ... Whereas Steve Austin and the Rock got over quickley once they changes their personas.... Tripper had to really work at it for a long time to get the crowds to really react to him.

Without Shawn by his side at this point in his career... Tripper rarely shined. He would probably only just squeeze in my top 10 for the 1997 singles roster at any given time

[Turley]

Shock, stop twisting things.

I made it very clear that it was a count out victory and I never said it was a career highlight.

I mentioned the match because you said HHH was just part of HBKs entourage at this time. You were downplaying his role and mentioning the match was entirely relevant to countering this point. A win over the World Champ on RAW isnt something a background player was given. I dont remember Savio Vega getting wins over the champ when he was in the NOD.

If you add the win over Bret to clean wins over Owen Hart and Jim Neidhart then you have HHH getting singles victories over a huge portiion of The Hart Foundation, the other formidable faction of the time.

I now demand you retract your statement about HHH being merely part of the entourage. I feel you were deliberately downplaying his position at the time.

[Turley]

Tripper rarely shined. He would probably only just squeeze in my top 10 for the 1997 singles roster at any given time

but its not like The Freebirds were 3 main eventers. HHH was the secondary member of DX. That was his role, he shouldnt be criticised for that. A good faction had one top tier guy, supported by some mid card or upper mid card wrestlers. If this support was getting wins against the majority of the faction they were feuding with (such as what HHH did with the Harts) then he has played his role well. HHH was becoming a very solid mid-carder at the time. It is undeniable that he was on the cusp of progression.

[Shockage]

Turley, it's funny that you say that the Freebirds weren't main eventer,s yet they were always at the top of the card in Mid-South and WCCW. That's quite an accomplishment when a trio is main eventing when that place is usually reserved for a single's champion.

It's true, HHH was part of HBK's entourage. Look at the DX posters of the 3, and tell me who's in the middle or the center of the group photos. Tell me who accompanies whom out to the ring for his matches. Tell me who warms up to Shawn Michaels in those infamous promos where he asks who the show stopper, the show stealer, the main eventer is only for shawn Michaels to answer "ME" to those questions. The evidence is all there, history doesn't lie!

Badstreet Atlanta GA!

[Turley]

pretty good faction if the netourage gets wins over the World Champion...

oh, and does that mean whichever Freebird members werent in the centre of their pictures are merely an entourage too?

uh huh

[Shockage]

yeah, a count out win *giggles*

[Turley]

as a matter of interest, did any of the Freebirds get televised wins over the world champion?

[Shockage]

Yes, Terry Gordy won the UWF Title on TV. But the biggest point is group unity nad the fact that the Freebirds worked %99 of the time as a trio for 7 years which takes us back to the topic of this thread/tournament. The Freebirds did it better, longer and broke ground along the way. Also if you look at any group photo of the Birds, any Horsemen version, the '97 Hart Foundation and the Dangerous Alliance, you'll see an ensemble group. Of course you'd have the leader somewhere in the center, but everyone else would look strong and established. If you look at any DX '97 pic, the photo focuses around HBK being celebrated by HHH and Chyna. It makes the other two look inferior and tag along. You are thinking individually like you did in the "who really carried the Hart Foundation tag team poll", where you're looking at the guy who went onto bigger things. You are doing somewhat the same thing in this thread where you're looking at the group as individuals rather than what the group accomplished together as a working unit. Freebirds have got this win locked. Freebirds for the win!!!

[thethirdwarren]

Well I'm going with the Freebirds. Mainly because I don't consider this version of DX a faction. They're a tag team with Chums as their manager. The Freebirds were talented and ahead of their time in my opinion. DX set the company back because of their backstage antics and attempts to bury everyone. I just can't give DX the vote in this tournament.

[chaoskid]

I read the comments and the point that Chyna wasn't an active wrestler swung the vote for me, also the fact that probably isn't a better six man team than the freebirds

[ThomC]

Fabulous Freebirds Advance