The Most Unflattering, Unmasuline CM Punk Photo When Compared to a Real Wrestler

[Goldie79]

Alright fine maybe not Shawn Micheals but he sure as hell would draw better then the Hitman.

Bret Hart was arguably a better draw than Shawn Michaels.

Keep them coming Darth they are most amusing!

[Goldie79]

Bret wasn't a true main event star until about 1995 before that he had the likes of Hogan, Piper, Jake the Snake and even Undertaker to draw for him .

Untill 1995? If you look at the 5 year period between 1992-97 as a whole. Bret was the companys top star.
If Undertaker was a bigger star than Bret in this period.... then why was Taker frozen out of the world title picture untill March 1997?
If Bret was such an awful draw... then why weren't Taker or Shawn pushed ahead of Bret during this period?..... (remember shawn had to wait untill 1996).
Bret was the flagbearer of the WWE during the mid 90s.

I've been doing my research Shock Bret was not a big draw infact the best thing he did was help put over Austin as a babyface before that tell me what the average people liked at each PPV and I can tell the only ones that say Bret Hart is when he's in a match with Austin, HBK, Undertaker, Owen and the Bulldog.

If you ever watch Brets take note on how he structures his matches. Wrestlers today should really take note.
Bret made each guy he was in teh ring with look like a star... at a time where Shawn would take libities to make sure no one looked as good as him (or became a threat to his spot)
There was also much more to Bret than 'building up Austin'. This is just ignorance.

[Shockage]

There had to be a reason why Vince kept putting the belt back on Bret. Could it be that he was a consistent draw and reliable champion? HMMMMMMMM!!! Even in Bret's final year with the company, he pretty much left the WWF in great hands as he worked to help establish Steve Austin as his successor, not HBK's successor, BRET'S successor.

[Mighty Boosh]

*had a pipebomb written for him

I'm not going to argue this because I can't prove you're wrong, however I doubt you can prove you're right. I could tell you what Punk said on this in an interview/panel but although I think it's totally legit I doubt you'd believe it. So I have no problem with you saying Punk's promo was written for him, but please don't say it as though it's a proven fact.

[Macho Man]

Reading through some of these posts it seems people are using Shocks hatred for punk as an excuse not to acknowledge the point he is making. Sure it his hidden in amougst a lot of anti-Punk talk, but the point was still there and still valid. Physiques are part of the wrestling package. Sure it might not be the most important part of it, but it does have influence, and it does play a role. It's much like when women say to men "that size doesn't matter", we all know that it is complete hogwash. Other aspects may be more important but size still plays a role in the overall appeal. Punk just looks like another average joe. Love it or hate it, wrestlers with muscular physiques look more believable as champions. Sure, smaller guys can bring the fight, but expectations are that the bigger guys are the ones that you wouldn't want to mess with. Common social perception is with the idea that more muscles means that you would be a bette fighter. We've all seen examples that contradict this, but at the same time we would all be more impressed if Rey Mysterio knocked out Brock Lesna in one punch then if it were the othe way around. Simply because we'd expect Brock to be the sure winner. The look plays a role in how believable a wrestler is, and when it comes down to it, if the champion doesn't look like a believable fighter, then it does make the rest of the roster look weaker. Especially when it is the longest reign in the past 25 years. It just makes the big monster like characters and the steroid junkie guys look incredibly weak when they can't even beat a scrawny guy that just looks like one of the fans. For Punk to be more believable as champion, he needs to tone up.

[Shockage]

Reading through some of these posts it seems people are using Shocks hatred for punk as an excuse not to acknowledge the point he is making. Sure it his hidden in amougst a lot of anti-Punk talk, but the point was still there and still valid.

Yes, indeed, the comments came almost at once and quite cowardly as it looked like one waited for the other before posting. That's the kind of hatred the Rock faced.

[Mr. Tambourine Man]

Physiques are part of the wrestling package. Sure it might not be the most important part of it, but it does have influence, and it does play a role.

It has influence the same way anything else has influence. If Big Show was a master at Judo it would certainly make him more impressive. Does it make him a poor candidate for being a main eventer because he isn't great at Judo? Certainly not.

The same goes for a physique. Punk has excellent mic skills, has great stamina, excellent ring psychology, impressive moveset, a very current look, and many other good qualities. Would he be more impressive if he was 6"5 and weighed 100 more lbs? Sure maybe. Does it matter than hes not? Not at all.

Just to use Big Show as an example again...he's a big guy, but there are other big guys WWE has tried to bring up over the years. Khali, Jackson Andrews, Matt Morgan, Nathan Jones, Kurgann...the difference between those guys and Big Show is that Big Show has more going on than just the freak show aspect. He's very athletic for his size, good actor per wrestling standards, and knows how to make his size work for him.

[will ridge]

One thing no one mentioned is character. Every wrestler that steps into the ring, whether it's stepping up their real life persona a bit or putting on makeup and eating worms, is playing a character. And if a wrestler doesn't physically fit the roll of their character, then they fail. You can't have Big Show play a luchadore, and you can't have Brad Madox play the Ryback character.

CM Punks character is more or less that he is a follower of the straight edge movement, which is a branch of hardcore punk rock. In order to pull off the character, he has to have tattoos everywhere, look like he just rolled out of bed, and generally look like a punk, it's his name after all. As far as physically, how does he look compared to search results for "hardcore punk" on google? I'll let you decide.



Really, if CM Punk did a straight edge gimmick, with a body like Hulk Hogan or Bruno Samartino, it would be like Dusty Rhodes (a common man) having a body like Superstar Billy Grahm.

[Shockage]

I see more 'punk' in Rockstar Spud. At least in Spud's case, he's put in a realistic genre of the X Division.

[Goldie79]

CM Punks character is more or less that he is a follower of the straight edge movement, which is a branch of hardcore punk rock. In order to pull off the character, he has to have tattoos everywhere, look like he just rolled out of bed, and generally look like a punk, it's his name after all. As far as physically, how does he look compared to search results for "hardcore punk" on google? I'll let you decide.

One key point at these punk dude pictures..... they are not wrestlers.

[Goldie79]

The same goes for a physique. Punk has excellent mic skills, has great stamina, excellent ring psychology, impressive moveset, a very current look, and many other good qualities. Would he be more impressive if he was 6"5 and weighed 100 more lbs? Sure maybe. Does it matter than hes not? Not at all.

Even though wrestling was outed as pre-determined many years ago ..... as the Hitman would say... it has to at least pretend to be real.
In recent years when you have guys who are 150 pounds and 5'3 (such as Rey Mysterio) going over someone like the Big Show .... wrestling loses its believibility.

Sure the IWC don't care .... as its match quality most smarks care about.
But for people who are not die-hard fans .... seeing the little guy beat the big guy, for them its like seeing David beat Goliath. They can't believe what they've just seen and dismiss it.
'That really happened... no way? As if that would happen! what a load of rubbish'

Its not so obvious when Punk wrestles smaller guys... but against the Rock, the differnece in physique was obvious.
How believable is it to the casual wrestling fan to see the 'Average Joe' beat the guy who looks like a wrestler?

Sometimes I find myself defending wrestling to non-wrestling fans... they just take cheap shots 'Oh its so fake' .... 'that guy would never beat that guy' ...and it doesn't help when the 'believebility' factor is gone

[Turley]

A big part of having the right look is to be able to catch the attention of people that don't watch wrestling. Punk could be the best ever in the ring and on the mic but he is still an average joe to the 99% of the population that don't watch.

[Mr. Tambourine Man]

Even though wrestling was outed as pre-determined many years ago ..... as the Hitman would say... it has to at least pretend to be real.
In recent years when you have guys who are 150 pounds and 5'3 (such as Rey Mysterio) going over someone like the Big Show .... wrestling loses its believibility.

Sure the IWC don't care .... as its match quality most smarks care about.
But for people who are not die-hard fans .... seeing the little guy beat the big guy, for them its like seeing David beat Goliath. They can't believe what they've just seen and dismiss it.
'That really happened... no way? As if that would happen! what a load of rubbish'

Its not so obvious when Punk wrestles smaller guys... but against the Rock, the differnece in physique was obvious.
How believable is it to the casual wrestling fan to see the 'Average Joe' beat the guy who looks like a wrestler?

Sometimes I find myself defending wrestling to non-wrestling fans... they just take cheap shots 'Oh its so fake' .... 'that guy would never beat that guy' ...and it doesn't help when the 'believebility' factor is gone

In legit combat sports guys who are at a huge disadvantage can win also. Have you ever heard of Ikuhisa Minowa? The guy is maybe 5"8 and he's beaten absolute giants. He picked his moments and worked off the giants knees or got them to the ground and found them in a submission hold.

For some reason OWW wont let me post the youtube videos but do a search for Minowa vs. Sapp or vs. Hongman Choi (7"2)

And just to give a more mainstream example. Randy Couture defeated Tim Sylvia at UFC 68. There's seven inches separating those guys.

If people see it in real life, I dont see why it would be an issue in wrestling.

[Goldie79]

In legit combat sports guys who are at a huge disadvantage can win also.

Randy Couture defeated Tim Sylvia at UFC 68. There's seven inches separating those guys.

Yes but these guys are still ATHLETES. (Randy Courtoure what a legend)
There could well be 7 inches between The Rock and Chris Jericho.... thats not a big deal. Jericho still looks like a wrestler.
Mike Tyson was smaller in height than most boxers he destroyed.... no big deal. Mike was built like a tank.

If some skinny guy without a physique came into MMA and blew away all the top heavyweights... then I'd take your point

[Maximo]

That's exactly what happened with Royce Gracie when he was 176 pounds in his prime for christ sake.

And that was when people in UFC were allowed to do anything.

[Mr. Tambourine Man]

Yes but these guys are still ATHLETES. (Randy Courtoure what a legend)
There could well be 7 inches between The Rock and Chris Jericho.... thats not a big deal. Jericho still looks like a wrestler.
Mike Tyson was smaller in height than most boxers he destroyed.... no big deal. Mike was built like a tank.

If some skinny guy without a physique came into MMA and blew away all the top heavyweights... then I'd take your point

The first guy I mentioned, Minowa, is very lean on top of being small.

Another example...Royce Gracie. This man is one of the best fighters in early UFC history beating guys who were 40+ pounds larger or many inches taller or sometimes both



Going off physique and size alone, not all that impressive. Certainly not bad looking. Like Punk he looked like a guy who worked out and ate healthy, but wasn't putting a considerable amount of effort into his body. Probably because he was putting his effort into learning how to kick peoples butts.

[Goldie79]

We appear to be going off on a tangent here... but what the heck.

There will always be exceptions to the rule.... small guys beating big guys.... but were the big guys they beat top UFC champion calibre heavyweights? or big guys that were average MMA fighters.

Yes wrestling is a work.... but if we are drawing an analogy here.... Punk beating a midcarder who is bigger than him (Such as Jack Swagger) is not so much of a big deal. Swagger would be that bigger, average MMA fighter who loses to a smaller fighter (Punk)
However Punk being the WWE champion... that would be like Minowa or Gracie coming into the UFC and beating a HW in the calibre of Tim Sylvia, Randy Courtore, Brock Lesnar. A top heavyweight.

Remember when boxer Roy Jones (then a Light Heavyweight) won the WBA heavyweight title from John Ruiz? That was quite a feat.
However Ruiz is regarded as one of the worst HW champions in history.
So would Roy Jones have beaten the cream of the HW division? say Lennox Lewis? Lennox would have eaten him for breakfast.

There is a difference between a skilled smaller guy fighting an average big guy..... and a skilled smaller fighting a skilled bigger guy.

[Maximo]

Royce Gracie beat Dan Severn who is a heavyweight MMA legend and he is 5 stone heavier in his prime.
The only two people Royce lost to were Kazushi Sakuraba and Matt Hughes, who guess what? Hughes is smaller then Gracie.

And besides boxing is a different ball game, its ALL about punches from standing, the best thing about being a smaller fighter is that you manipulate the ground game because you can find small gaps that bigger fighters cannot utilize, that is why the Gracies are such good fighters. A big persons weight can be their own worst enemy.

And Brock Lesnar is one of a kind.
I have never seen someone of his size pull of the things he's done with such agility and such knowledge of submissions.
If he didn't suffer from health problems with his stomach, then he would still in UFC kicking ass and taking names.

I've never seen a big fighter with the heart to keep fighting when they are in a bad position.
But I've seen smaller athletes keep going till it kills them.

[Goldie79]

Royce Gracie beat Dan Severn who is a heavyweight MMA legend and he is 5 stone heavier in his prime.

Probably a rare exception. Though my examples were of HW guys who had physiques... and Brock Lesnar/Randy Coutoure certainly had them.
Severn was successful from the early years of UFC .... and like Ken Shamrock, wasn't the same force once MMA evolved, and fighters included more fighting styles in their repetoires.
Though Dan Severn is a legit tough guy.... he didn't possess that look/physique that Brock or Randy had. (Lets get back on topic).
One of the reasons why I think Severn completely bombed in the WWE in 1998 was that he didn't look the part (despite his real life toughness)

Hughes is smaller then Gracie.

So? I thought we were talking about physiques, not weight or height.
CM Punk is billed as being HEAVIER than Dolph Ziggler or Zack Ryder..... however both these guys still look like wrestlers.

And besides boxing is a different ball game, its ALL about punches from standing

Its no less relevant than talking about MMA.... as wrestling is a work.

And Brock Lesnar is one of a kind.
I have never seen someone of his size pull of the things he's done with such agility and such knowledge of submissions.
If he didn't suffer from health problems with his stomach, then he would still in UFC kicking ass and taking names.

Agreed. Brock is a bad bad man! However before Brock undertook MMA training..... and was a wrestler on the WWE roster 10 years ago... it was generally known that Kurt Angle was the legit toughest guy in the lockeroom. Though Brock was probably #2..... and remember this is BEFORE Brocks MMA training..... both were excellent amateur wrestlers.
And Kurt of course is smaller than Brock. But this is where we are going way off topic.
Kurt may have been smaller then Brock ..... but here we go again... Kurt still had a physique and looked like a wrestler.

Weight and Height is not what I am getting at here with CM Punk.
He is too scrawny... and doesn't look like a wrestler.

[Mr. Tambourine Man]

We appear to be going off on a tangent here... but what the heck.

There will always be exceptions to the rule.... small guys beating big guys.... but were the big guys they beat top UFC champion calibre heavyweights? or big guys that were average MMA fighters.



Yes wrestling is a work.... but if we are drawing an analogy here.... Punk beating a midcarder who is bigger than him (Such as Jack Swagger) is not so much of a big deal. Swagger would be that bigger, average MMA fighter who loses to a smaller fighter (Punk)
However Punk being the WWE champion... that would be like Minowa or Gracie coming into the UFC and beating a HW in the calibre of Tim Sylvia, Randy Courtore, Brock Lesnar. A top heavyweight.


Remember when boxer Roy Jones (then a Light Heavyweight) won the WBA heavyweight title from John Ruiz? That was quite a feat.
However Ruiz is regarded as one of the worst HW champions in history.
So would Roy Jones have beaten the cream of the HW division? say Lennox Lewis? Lennox would have eaten him for breakfast.

There is a difference between a skilled smaller guy fighting an average big guy..... and a skilled smaller fighting a skilled bigger guy.

As Maximo pointed out, those guys beat a combination of top of the line fighters and average skilled giants.

The point is though that if its possible in real life, surely people will buy it in their scripted pro wrestling. WWE can position Punk (or any other guy like him) as the ultimate submission/striking specialist and make his stature an afterthought.

[Maximo]

It started off with you saying about the small Rey Mysterio wasn't realistic beating The Big Show, so there have been counter arguments saying that smaller fighters have beaten bigger fighters in legit events.
And then you made the boxing analogy later on about weight (heavyweights can eaiserly beat lightweights if they are have the same level of skill) I just pointed out that how poweful punches are, has alot to do with weight and will make the lighter fighter go down with one wrong step.
But for people who can catch the punch and bring them down into a submission hold, they can turn the heavier fighter into easy pickings.
Now onto the subject at hands because "PRO wrestling" is a work.

I dislike CM Punk as a character and as a person but him being skinny shouldn't be as big as a issue as it is when he is WWE champion. WWE champion doesn't mean Heavyweight champion anymore.
If you've got a good enough move set and character it doesn't matter that your skinny or 600 pounds of fat as long as you can make it work for you and make the crowd react to you like you want whilst making them think its real, and when you finish they give you a standing ovation, you deserve to be the champion of the company you work for.

Many people that I dislike as people have been main champion of their company but I understand why because, the fans get into it and want to see another.

[Goldie79]

As Maximo pointed out, those guys beat a combination of top of the line fighters and average skilled giants.

Yeah there are exceptions.... more often than not... the big guy would win right? and forget the small guy vs the average big guy comparison.... we're talking top small guy and top big guy.
As a WWE champion.... Punk is a small top guy mixing it with top bigger guys (not bigger midcarders) such as Rock and Cena.

The point is though that if its possible in real life, surely people will buy it in their scripted pro wrestling..

Not everyone. The (non-wrestling fan) friend i mentioned earlier who I watched the Royal Rumble with (his first ever show).... was just laughing at the notion Punk could ever beat Rock... or even look competitive. This will be the attitude for a good portion of who don't follow wrestling. They simply don't believe it.

Business has usually taken a sharp decline in wrestling cycles once the guys who 'look like wrestlers' have been phased out.
When your Hogans/Warriors disappeared in the early 90s.... we had smaller guys like Bret/Shawn on top.... this would be a delight from the IWC point of view because the match quality of main events improved dramatically.... however business suffered.
When the steroids scandal began to fade, the bigger wrestlers were phased back in.... and business picked up again.
Today the WWE is having another down-period.

I'm not saying its all about the look... but it plays a part. It will certainly draw the attention of certain types of fans who come and go from wrestling.
Hogan, Rock, Austin all had great physiques. Yes they were all charismatic..... but why weren't Flair, Shawn or Jericho (who are also charismatic) come close to getting the same attention of the general audience?

[Turley]

I've never seen a big fighter with the heart to keep fighting when they are in a bad position.

Ive never stopped to look at a picture of a dude who looks like he would have a big heart. Thats what this is about. It is about having a certain look, NOT about having skills. The majority of the world wont wait to check out whether or not you are any good, if you dont look good enough to make them notice you in the first place.

[Goldie79]

I dislike CM Punk as a character and as a person but him being skinny shouldn't be as big as a issue as it is when he is WWE champion. WWE champion doesn't mean Heavyweight champion anymore.

I'm the opposite. I don't dislike Punk. I am not saying all this because I dislike him. He can talk. He can wrestle. I just think he needs to bulk up a bit and look more like a wrestler. It doesn't have to affect his ring work.... it didn't slow down Bret or Shawn.

Anyway its night time for me. Presume we'll pick this up again tomorrow. Its been fun.

[Darth Shizzel]

UFC and WWE are totally different forms of entertainment one of them is legit one is fake Wrestling thrives on larger then life characters the other thrives on great fighters.