Small World Champions a NEW thing???

[DevinJAM]

Small World champions a NEW THING?

I haven't wrote anything for you guys in a while and I find myself looking at the whining done by deffrent fan bases. The truth is for me as a fan this is the Golden years. I Love both TNA and WWE I love the Indies. And I have never been more excited as a fan. It all started with the infamious pipe bomb droped by CM Punk, it was like a new era begain right then, all the things that fans knew they wanted was finnally being given to them. Some of course were happy with the way things were before then, and some wouldnt be happy if they got what they want, because they would just find something knew to complane about.

However to some this time period has been a devastating change, a challenge to there traditional view of wrestling. The biggest set of this view has been the complaint of the size of these wrestlers? Especially the size of the champions.
Lets look at the world Champions there complaining about real quick.
Jeff Hardy TNA World Champion 6'2 215 pounds.
CM Punk Former WWE Heavyweight Champion 6'2 218 pounds.
Kevin Steen ROH World Champion 5'11 240 pounds.

The complaints over these two are endless in more so over Punk then Hardy. Neather one looks like there idea of a champion there not tone enough there not big enough. They go against wrestling tradition. Or do they?

First ill start with Size

Frank Gotch was the 2nd ever World heavyweight champion, litterly ever, he was world champion from 1908 to 1913. he was 5'11 210 pounds.
He was really strong but look at him Frank Gotch wasnt Tone at all.



His Main opponent was a extreamly toned 5'9 219 pound Georg Hackenschmidt



Its interesting to note both these men had Charictoristics of Punk that people dont like.
Georg was accused of being a whiner he lost the title by refusing to continue the match whining to the ref.

Frank Gotch didnt have a tone look, he was a real life cheat paying Ad Santel to brank Georg's leg and retained the World title by crook. He is now called a American Hero.


Joe Stetcher was 6'1 220 pounds he was the 3rd ever world Champion.

many pics of Joe show him at one time being toned but as champion someone give the man a burger.


Ed Strangler Lewis was 5'10 265 pounds he was natrual strong, he didnt have a tone look or the great look



He was the Hulk Hogan of this time selling out arenas.



So seens Wrestling didnt start out with this Idea of the Giant wrestler with the great look start?

It may have started with the 5'8 200Ib Jim Londos.




He was booked because of his looks, Ed Lewis who was also a booker, Booked Jim Londos because he could draw a female fan base. However despite Londos look his size was small.

It may have been Buddy Rogers whos look was a large part of his appeal. He was also well toned. In fact I would argue that Buddy Rogers was the start of the age of Giants. Lou Thez was Toned yes and had the appel that worked for his time but it wasnt the look that sticks largely in the minds of these so called old school wrestling fans. Buddy Rogers has that look, perfection.
So by theory if im right this ideal look for a world champion started in 1964.

I argue that the current trend is a return to the Joe Stretcher era of wrestling the Frank Gotch era of wrestling, were in ring ability overides looks.

[The Legend Killer]

I think the problem is mostly with WWE, Vince McMahon is in love with the freakish build, or just the all around muscular look. I guess in his mind, he wants to allow people to dream, and if you see some of these dudes in the WWE, it kind of gives you a goal, but, it's still just Hollywood bullcrap/. As someone who's not a big guy at all, I can personally say that being a big dude doesn't mean you're the strongest or most athletic. You might be the scariest looking, but, that's about it. Really, if Hornswoggle ran up to you and said he was going to kick your butt, you'd probably just laugh, but he might be able to do it. If John Cena said it to you, you'd probably be a bit more respectful about saying, "No way dude." I do like that the average looking dude can become a champion, I forget who it was, but someone on here said they liked CM Punk as the champion because he was just a regular looking dude, and it gave you that thought of, "Well if he can do it, I can probably do that too!".

I think for the WWE, it's like reading a comic book or something. The hero is always supposed to be this huge dude that looks almost unstoppable, and the villain almost the same way, but just a jerk. I do like that the average looking dude is getting their chance, but, I don't think it'll last too long. Especially in a company like WWE. They're more about the promos and the look than they are the actual wrestling ability. If it was all about wrestling ability, most of the "main eventers" would still be just opening up the show. I don't get shows like ROH here, but, from what I understand, promotions like that are actually about talent. Yes, promos and other stuff is important too, but, they still focus on wrestling talent. So, you might see more regular looking dudes as champions on shows like that than you will in WWE.

[Maximo]

Always a huge dude in comics? Do you actually read comics?

The most popular XMan is Wolverine and he's 5'3
Spiderman is 5'10 and 167 pounds
Joker the most famous batman villiain was about 6 foot and always weighed less then 180 pounds no matter the writer.
Two face was also 6 foot yet weighed less then 190 pounds
Penguin was 5'2 and weighed 175 pounds of pure fat.
Hell Batman is 95kg which would put him in a cruiserweight division.


On the subject I completely agree DevinJam, If your not familiar of the real early days of wrestling, just look at the beginnings of UFC where there were no weight divisions, it doesn't matter what your size you are, if you are well trained at the fighting style, anyone can beat anyone.
Remember last year when some kid killed his much older and heavier cousin with a simple rear naked choke?

If you think a guy isn't believable as world champ because he can't LIFT his opponent off the ground, you are an idiot.

[The Legend Killer]

Nope, I don't. I know they'll do different versions of the same comic, so, I don't know if any of what you put is the only one or not, i'm not saying you're wrong, i'm just saying since they do so many different comics for the same dude, they might have them as a different size. And I didn't mean a huge dude as far as like being 7 feet tall and 300 lbs., or something, I meant muscle wise, that's what I meant by it.

[Maximo]

Ah I get you, but still.

[Mighty Boosh]

On the comics argument, Spiderman has made more money (comics, TV, Films, Merch, etc) than any other comic book character and he's always been portrayed as smaller and skinnier than the other superheroes.

Plus one of the most legitamatley scary, tough and bad-ass individual characters in cinema is Scarface Tony Montanna, played by Al Pacino who I believe is only 5'7. Pacino didn't even put any muscle on, he was fairly skinny in that film. Still you spend the whole film knowing he can kick ass and unlike a lot of hollywood tough guys it's believable, you can't see Stallone jumping out of a helicopter and shooting 20 guys in real life but you can see Scarface walking down the street and taking some guy out. It's all in how Pacino carries himself.

Speaking of Stallone, I hear he's like 5'8 or something. The guy that plays Peter Barlow in Corination Street, I read he's 5'7, still you could see him eating any other bloke on the show for breakfast.

Some people thought Ric Flair was too small to be world champion. Second biggest draw wrestling has ever seen, called too small. Piper was billed at 6'2 as well, he's probably shorter, in fact in a WCW book I used to have I think they said he was 5'7. Definetly in the 5's. Still Piper seemed like a real tough guy.

These guys show that size doesn't matter. I'm with LK, the only reason we have this opinion that wrestlers need to look a certain way is because Vince is hard for bodybuilders and giants. I mean hell, Andre The Giant in his prime probably would have been destroyed by Bruce Lee in a legit fight. Size means very little. If you use us as an example, size means nothing.

In fact I was wrestling with a freind of mine the other week. I'm only about 5'5, 9 and a half stone, my friend is 6'6 and about 13 stone. I managed to floor him with a headlock.

[Shockage]

I'd like to see Spiderman use his powers to fight in front of a live crowd. The magic of fighting on the movie screen is that you have stunt doubles and an expensive video production to enhance your body and scale buildings. You can't bullcrap like that in front of a live crowd. Rey Mysterio has come close and it's caused him to spend the greater part of the last year or so on the sideline. Sooner or later, the toll will catch up to these small guys, Rey, Dynamite, Benoit.

[Maximo]

Rey Mysterio
Chris Benoit
Dynamite Kid

All amazing athletes/wrestlers throughout their career and the thing that ruined them were the steroids they took to try and be the size people like you want them to be. It isn't natural for someone with a small frame to gain 100 pounds. It takes a huge toll on the body that can never be recovered from.

[Mighty Boosh]

I'd like to see Spiderman use his powers to fight in front of a live crowd. The magic of fighting on the movie screen is that you have stunt doubles and an expensive video production to enhance your body and scale buildings. You can't bullcrap like that in front of a live crowd. Rey Mysterio has come close and it's caused him to spend the greater part of the last year or so on the sideline. Sooner or later, the toll will catch up to these small guys, Rey, Dynamite, Benoit.

There's more to Spider-man than just special effects. He has character and a tough, never give in attitude. Action scenes are redundant, Spider-man has stood next to far bigger characters who can do equally impressive things and still he has beaten them and won the fans over. Spider-man's powers don't make a difference, Superman has powers too yet despite being bigger than Spider-man, Spidey outsells him. Nobody cares how big Spiderman is, everyone wants to be him anyway.

[Mr. Tambourine Man]

this guy


knocked out JBL

[Shockage]

There's more to Spider-man than just special effects. He has character and a tough, never give in attitude. Action scenes are redundant, Spider-man has stood next to far bigger characters who can do equally impressive things and still he has beaten them and won the fans over. Spider-man's powers don't make a difference, Superman has powers too yet despite being bigger than Spider-man, Spidey outsells him. Nobody cares how big Spiderman is, everyone wants to be him anyway.

Awesome, now find us a pro wrestler with Spiderman powers, and while you're at it, find us a Klingon that we can put into a wrestling school.

[The Legend Killer]

Man, I mention comic books.........and now this topic is talking about comic books!? I didn't mean to change the topic!


.......Aquaman is the best by the way.

[Mighty Boosh]

Awesome, now find us a pro wrestler with Spiderman powers, and while you're at it, find us a Klingon that we can put into a wrestling school.

Dude, you're the one that brought up the superpowers. I mean did you even read my comment, because I clearly stated that powers are redundant. Spidey's power has nothing to do with this.

What matters is that the fans connect with Spiderman, believe he can beat his equally or probably more powerful opponent. They see past his size. It's the same with wrestling, no matter the size of the wrestler he can get the audience to believe in him and become the top star.

Spidey's power is like a wrestling style, redundant in this argument. Doesn't matter if you're a striker or a powerhouse, what matters is if the fans get behind you, beleive in you.

[Shockage]

No, it's not the same with wrestling, because with wrestling - regardless of it being pre-booked, the spectators are still aware of man's human form and what the body is capable of in physical combat. No wrestlers are being bit on the ass by spiders to bring out super powers to use in the matches. Even when Hulk and Warrior no sold, their reasons came down to adrenalin, fighting spirit and feeding off the love of a LIVE audience, none of that mumbo jumbo "a spider bit my ass, now I can jump from here to Timbucktoo". Do you not remember what happened to Owen Hart when they tried the superhero gimmick? There you go!

[thenige83]

Speaking of Stallone, I hear he's like 5'8 or something. The guy that plays Peter Barlow in Corination Street, I read he's 5'7, still you could see him eating any other bloke on the show for breakfast.
.

What's Corination Street? Also smaller sized Champions make things seem a little more believable to me.

[Maximo]

Coronation Street is one of the top 3 English soaps, basically it stereotypes Northerners whilst the other two, stereotype Londoners (Eastenders) and Countryside dwellers (Emmeradale).

Soaps over here I are mainly a woman's/elderly thing. Been round for a long time.

I'm not calling Mighty Boosh a woman for watching it though, its got pretty decent acting in it so him being an aspiring actor I can understand that.

[Mighty Boosh]

Also I live in the North, almost everyone in the North watches Corrie and everyone has watched it a bit. I wouldn't say it's stereotypical of the north though, perhaps a bit but it's pretty believable unlike some shows which just take this piss.

Anyway, superheroes and TV shows aside, the point is that viewers don't need to see muscles or height to buy that someone is tough or can be a champion. Shockage talks about the human form and what the body is capable of in combat, well height and muscle mass play little part in that. Bruce Lee was probably the toughest guy to ever exist, but he wasn't big and bulky like John Cena or Ryback.

Viewers do react to size but in the case of Spider-man, Peter Barlow, Tony Montanna and any smaller wrestler their size doesn't matter because they buy into the persona, how they carry themselves and through that they know these are tough guys that have what it takes to get to the top.

[Maximo]

Also I live in the North, almost everyone in the North watches Corrie and everyone has watched it a bit. I wouldn't say it's stereotypical of the north though, perhaps a bit but it's pretty believable unlike some shows which just take this piss.

True, we can accommodate more to Eastenders down here in the South to. Alot of things that happens in that happens down around here,. It depends on how close family is to be honest. Television is a bridge between generations. I've lived in a different town for 5 years now and its a very selfish place, so my opinions have been skewed.

I think the problem with using Bruce Lee in the argument is he trained everyday. He was a guy who needed to make machines to satisfy his need to become stronger and quicker then anyone, no one else in his lifetime did that.
The problem is some smaller guys in wrestling don't have that kind of commitment, and people who are used to small guys Bruce Lee and Dynamite Kid when he took steroids don't realize that they used suicidal methods to get that.

[Mighty Boosh]

I hear you man, but I just used Lee as a bit of an extreme example. One of the most dangerous things about Bruce Lee was his technique. A small guy with great technique can beat any big guy.

Bruce Lee was insanely committed, but wrestling is to a degree fictional. Daniel Bryan doesn't have to train as hard as Bruce Lee he just needs to convince us that he does train hard, that he has the skills needed to kick some serious ass. It's no different to comics or TV shows, as long as Peter Barlow convinces us that he's a legit tough guy and Spider-man can convince us that he can strategies past any obstacles then we'll believe they can win the fight.

Daniel Bryan does train hard, but that's not what's important. What's important is we believe that his technique is so good that he could take on a bigger opponent and still win.